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  #1  
Old 01-25-2016, 07:00 AM
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Default Earlier versions of NnT during development

OWI are posting on twitter parts of the game that changed during development.





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Old 01-25-2016, 07:44 AM
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It's weird how they're bragging about it, like the removal was a good thing
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Old 01-25-2016, 08:03 AM
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It's weird how they're bragging about it, like the removal was a good thing
That was my thought. I really didn't like the aesthetic of the new motion sensors.
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Old 01-25-2016, 08:10 AM
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The final sensors are much more visible, probably why the changed it.
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Old 01-25-2016, 08:15 AM
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Also, stripped out of any challenge. And of fun.
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Old 01-25-2016, 08:39 AM
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I agree. I wish both of these were in the game. The seamless transition to the next level looked awesome.
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Old 01-25-2016, 09:52 AM
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#OddFact The game looked better at a previous point in time. Don't you wish we released that build?
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Old 01-25-2016, 10:27 AM
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That level transition seemed a bit sloppy. I don't think it would have worked as well as people would have wanted.
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Old 01-25-2016, 10:34 AM
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I liked the transitions, and they could've made it better if they wanted to. I can see why they changed the sensors because while the original concept looks better in theory, it looks pretty bad in 3D and the gates look OK too.

Now that screenshot of grimdark Rupture Farms looks super cheap. I mean, poured concrete floors? Lights hanging from the ceiling? Even the electric gate is just a generator zapping two metal plates on the floor.



While I agree the final version of Rupture Farms should've been darker I still like the fact that it's recognizable. It looks just like the original only brighter and more colorful. The early one just looks like they tried to be edgy as fuck.
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Old 01-25-2016, 11:05 AM
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The seamless transitions were in the original AO so of course they planned on including that. My guess is it was cut for technical reasons or so they had less features to work on to meet deadlines.

The motion sensors don’t look right for a 3D world and you all know it, chill out.

I don’t dislike the early build RuptureFarms though, although it’s too bare and the concrete floors don’t fit.
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Old 01-25-2016, 11:12 AM
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I liked the transitions, and they could've made it better if they wanted to. I can see why they changed the sensors because while the original concept looks better in theory, it looks pretty bad in 3D and the gates look OK too.
You see, whether it looks good is secondary compared to whether it *plays* good. The gates fundamentally change the puzzle to the point it's just "move while the one nearest gate is not close to you" without any sense of timing.

The screenshot is super cheap, graphically, since it's easier to just tile a conrete texture on the ground in Unity than add details such as dirt, blood splatters etf etc.

The lights are copy-pasted too. Notice that you can't see how they're connected to the ceiling because knots require effort. (Reminds me of the boulders in the temple that are magically-moved in NnT while in AO you can't see the top and assume mudokons are making them swing or something)

NnT doesn't really scream effort. You really give them too much credit thinking that they're sane creative decisions whilst it's just a way to cover their backs by doing things fast and effortlessly, sacrificing quality.

The transition is choppy because the guy scripting the camera didn't know much about animation (or didn't care), there are just amateurish linear movements, I can count the keyframes.

There's a big difference between game made by a big, dedicated team and a small indie team, despite what Lorne might lie. The times don't matter. The game design is not 100% about pure technology (I'm still pointing out that Unity is *not* the best technology around, far, far from that)

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Old 01-25-2016, 11:23 AM
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I also kinda like that early RuptureFarms screenshot. While it's definitely way too barren and the floors look dumb, the style captures the atmosphere from the original game a lot better. I think it would've been the best if they had found some sort of middle ground between that screenshot and the finished design that they ended up going with.

And those motion sensors definitely don't look as good as the redesigns, in 3D at least. They might have worked for AO but I think it was a better decision to go with what they used.
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Old 01-25-2016, 11:26 AM
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Oh I agree with the last part, I absolutely believe Unity is the worst (modern) engine they could've used. Isn't Unreal Engine free as well? Unreal is great.
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Old 01-25-2016, 11:27 AM
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It's "free" if you give them a cut of the money you earn from it
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Old 01-25-2016, 12:27 PM
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It's "free" if you give them a cut of the money you earn from it
Oh. So it is.
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Old 01-25-2016, 12:44 PM
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NnT doesn't really scream effort. You really give them too much credit thinking that they're sane creative decisions whilst it's just a way to cover their backs by doing things fast and effortlessly, sacrificing quality.
I'm gonna have to disagree. NnT is essentially an indie game made by an indie development company. I don't think you can expect a game produced by such a small team under the time given to not have these cheap decisions. Are these decisions obvious? Yes. But we would not have the game had it not been for these shortcuts.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:16 PM
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You basically described what that game is.

The point is, AO is not an indie game made by an indie development company.

And NnT is supposed to be a remake of AO.

The point of remakes is to make a game that's as good as the original, but with better graphics.

A small indie developer is unable to make a game that's as good as the original. That, by that definition, makes NnT a bad remake.

Not to mention the graphics part is not really that great either.

Quote:
But we would not have the game had it not been for these shortcuts.
You can't just assume that. They might as well have made more small projects and gathered funds so they make a good remake. They didn't. They made a wrong decision and failed. Maybe that's why they're not cooperating with JAW anymore, because Lorne felt NnT is not as good as it should be.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Varrok View Post
The screenshot is super cheap, graphically, since it's easier to just tile a conrete texture on the ground in Unity than add details such as dirt, blood splatters etf etc.

The lights are copy-pasted too. Notice that you can't see how they're connected to the ceiling because knots require effort. (Reminds me of the boulders in the temple that are magically-moved in NnT while in AO you can't see the top and assume mudokons are making them swing or something)
You realize youíre criticizing the graphical fidelity of beta footage? Not to mention how dare they not show how lights connect to the ceiling, what a travesty.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:35 PM
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I finished NnT. While the graphics are actually better than in the beta, I wouldn't dare to call them great
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:38 PM
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I doubt you’d dare to say a good thing about NnT at all.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:43 PM
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I'd love to, I had reasonably high expectations for the game. Especially for the gameplay. It's not my fault they didn't deliver.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:48 PM
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You can't just assume that. They might as well have made more small projects and gathered funds so they make a good remake. They didn't. They made a wrong decision and failed. Maybe that's why they're not cooperating with JAW anymore, because Lorne felt NnT is not as good as it should be.
They clearly do not have the funds to make a game of AAA quality. They wouldn't have approached an indie company if they did. How long would we have been waiting if they attempted small projects to build revenue? I feel like you are being far too harsh about this game considering who made it. I think saying they didn't put much effort into the game is unfair to say. Abe's Oddysee asset-wise is a huge ass project. You cannot blame JAW for doing the things they did.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:52 PM
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Look at your arguments, it's like they took a 18-year old photoshop artist and made them redo the Mona Lisa from scratch, because Photoshop is superior technology to real painting.

It's gonna be worse, you know it will be. Let's say the 18-year old cared anyway. How is that a valid defence? Since when we're judging art by intentions, and not by the bloody art?

I don't blame JAW as much as I blame Lorne. He made the bad management decision, not JAW.
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Old 01-25-2016, 02:13 PM
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The graphics are actually pretty good. There's a few low poly objects here and there but it's pretty visually impressive. You can argue that some of the redesign goes against the spirit of the original but the environments - particularly the natural ones - and character models were all good imo. The bloom and dirty filter, though, felt line an annoying smear on some nice visuals. Characters animations were choppy which really took you out of the game.

Gameplay wise there's something left to be desired. There's a lack of fluidity to Abe that they can't really get away with in a sidescrolling platformer. I think there needs to be a lot of fine tuning with the movement moving forward.

Sound design was also something that didn't always succeed. I played Alf's Escape recently and it was very noticeable. Too often sounds don't play which can take the bite out of the experience. Slogs chasing you never felt as tense as they did in the original. Explosives going off is another element that lacked any real impact. Beating Mudokons as a Sligs felt very tame, too.

It's a pretty enjoyable experience, though, even if it feels pretty rough around the edges.
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Old 01-25-2016, 02:34 PM
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It all narrows down to whether you can accept the game in the state it is.

I can't. These issues you're listing are a big deal and I can't turn my eyes away from them.

When I play AO/AE, which are much older games, I can't really find anything I would change. These games are pretty much perfect. (Well apart from when they don't run on some modern hardwares, which was never a case for me)

The fact that we're able to list so many problems with NnT says a lot.

I mean: why are some of you to afraid to admit it? I know some of you think that. Maybe not Manco, because Manco's the kind of an 'edgy' guy who just responds with ad hominems like 'I doubt you’d dare to say a good thing about NnT at all.' and thinks he's a rational adult while (probably) portraying me as a whiny hater with no arguments whatsoever. Seriously, I hardly think he ever analyzes what I'm trying to say about it. But I talked to some of you lot, and I'm not the only one who's dissapointed by NnT. Sometimes I just feel I'm the only one vocal about it.
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Old 01-25-2016, 02:43 PM
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I don't think people are really afraid to admit how they feel. Different people just react differently. I think there's a lot to improve upon but I still enjoyed the game. My nostalgia trip is Exoddus so I'll probably be more critical of changes or issues in the remake of that. Often I think it's the opposite. It's easy to get hung up on criticisms that you forget you actually had a good experience overall. I think, overall, NnT is a good experience which lives up to the spirit of the original. However there's some problems with the game that I hope will be addressed in the Exoddus remake.
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Old 01-25-2016, 02:55 PM
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I wasn't disappointed by NnT. There are a lot of issues with it for sure and there were things in it that genuinely bothered me, but overall I enjoyed it as a game and also just because of the fact that it was a new Oddworld release (a remake, still, but a new release regardless). That was enough to appease me at least, although granted my standards aren't the highest in regards to Oddworld at this point, especially since there was such a large gap of time when the series was seemingly dead forever.

That being said, I do enjoy AO more in comparison, in terms of its mechanics and its style/atmosphere. But I still like NnT.
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Old 01-25-2016, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varrok View Post
I mean: why are some of you to afraid to admit it? I know some of you think that. Maybe not Manco, because Manco's the kind of an 'edgy' guy who just responds with ad hominems like 'I doubt youíd dare to say a good thing about NnT at all.' and thinks he's a rational adult while (probably) portraying me as a whiny hater with no arguments whatsoever. Seriously, I hardly think he ever analyzes what I'm trying to say about it. But I talked to some of you lot, and I'm not the only one who's dissapointed by NnT. Sometimes I just feel I'm the only one vocal about it.


Honestly I just donít seriously engage with you any more because you come across as someone whoís set on hating the game and wonít hear a word against your own opinion, and youíre kind of an asshole about it. See also: Fallout 4.

I like NnT. I donít think itís a perfect game, there are things that could have been improved. Itís still an excellent game though, and I find it easier to load up and play for a while than the original. Most of my criticism of the game comes down to some of the artistic choices they made rather than anything being mechanically wrong.

I think your criticism of the game is overly petty and focuses on small details you donít like and making out like they ruin the game, and now youíre expanding on that with some crazy argument that Lorne approached an indie studio to make a triple-A game and then failed to deliver on that, and somehow we should be outraged by that.

Itís a stupid argument. AO was a triple-A game back in 1997, NnT is not. It was made by an indie studio on an indie budget and marketed and distributed as an indie game, and it made sales comparable to an indie game. And they did a really good job of it overall.
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Old 01-25-2016, 04:07 PM
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Whether you think the game is good or not or whether it lived up to expectations is entirely subjective.

Personnally I think the game is fantastic, much better than the original. Personnally.
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Old 01-25-2016, 06:16 PM
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I pretty much agree with everything Manco said.

The motion sensor argument, however, is an interesting one. The sensor rays from the original were obviously changed to the track sensors for reasons of depth in a three-dimensional environment. Fair enough, but I agree, it's a lazy amendment, one that turns the sensor puzzles into a speed hump we can just drive over, as opposed to a stop sign we have to sneak our way through.

I distinctly remember Gilray talking about redesigning certain puzzle features due to the nature of the new engine. Honestly, I was expecting something a little deeper than track sensors, but it's nothing I can't live with. A lazy solution, yes, but a solution nonetheless.

It's the sligs I have a real issue with. Gilray went on and on about how they had to have a post-modern approach to solve all of these issues that arose by bringing the game forward, and he specifically mentioned the nature of sleeping sligs a handful of times. As we know, in the original, if you woke a slig up, he stayed awake until you left the screen, so I was eagerly awaiting to see how New 'n' Tasty handled this issue, because you couldn't simply slip out of the screen and come back in anymore. I was expecting the puzzles to be dramatically altered, to the point where if you wake up a slig, it could completely change how you would proceed. Honestly, it was exciting to have the possibility of multiple gameplay approaches.

And then JAW just decided to have the sligs fall back asleep after five seconds. Yep. Really wracked their brains over that one, didn't they? I don't know whether this was due to a lack of development time, or engine difficulties, but early on it certainly sounded like they had some grand plans for the sligs, other than a sleep timer.

It's still a great game. Flawed, but great.
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