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  #1  
Old 07-27-2014, 10:14 AM
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Idea Control Scheme Suggestion

New and Tasty has been out for a couple days now and has been met with a stream of positive reviews. The one complaint I've seen from critics and fans alike is the issue of controls:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gameinformer
While the need for precision has been reduced, the controls for traversing certain obstacles are still clumsy. The analog stick handles both movement speeds... making it perilously easy to sail off small platforms or run into fatal traps in high-pressure situations. These situations aren’t widespread, but a few instances are all it takes to raise frustration levels to maximum. Trial-and-error is an integral part of solving the puzzles, but dying is harder to swallow when the blame rests more with uncooperative controls than your own execution.
-Gameinformer, 80.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destructoid
Abe's jumping, to put it lightly -- sucks... It's very, very difficult to do some of the tougher platforming sections with the control scheme. Sometimes you'll try to get Abe to do a small leap, only to hit your toe on a set of mines and explode. Other times it's tricky to get him to jump farther, leading to some unfun platforming portions where you're fighting the controls to get to the next part of the level.
-Destructoid, 8.

I believe with a few small changes, New n Tasty could be greatly improved! These complaints seem to be the only thing holding New n Tasty back from scoring 9's and 10's across the board! What I'm proposing is a control scheme for the Xbox One, but the input tweaks I'm suggesting could hopefully be implemented to all future releases.

The main purpose of this reworked control scheme is to bind running to a button, like sneak, and to add a dedicated forward leap button (like in Abe's Oddysee and Exoddus).



I believe this control scheme would solve most of the problems people would have with fine movement and precision-based jumping puzzles, and would profoundly raise the quality of the overall experience. The player could still use the analog stick to control Abe's walk speed for fine movement, but without the risk of accidentally running. The addition of the forward leap input would give the player a surefire way to jump over mines without accidentally shuffling forward into a mine if timed wrong.

Barring any kind of coding conflict (as you can tell, I have no idea what I'm talking about programming-wise) with adding a resting forward jump, and separating running from the analog movement, I imagine these changes would be easy to make (but please let me know if I'm wrong, JAW)

Let me know what you think, and if you want to make your own control scheme, here's the template for the Xbox One controller.

Last edited by HOMINIX; 07-27-2014 at 09:06 PM..
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:07 PM
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I like that a lot. I also think JAW needs to put in re-bindable keys in the PC version. Not only will it make PC critics happy (Totalbiscuit) but we play control NnT just like the original games. Something which I'm personally very used to.
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:14 PM
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I think the option should be available. But I also think a lot of players, particularly new fans, would get frustrated if they had to hold down a button to run since every other platformer these days uses the left analogue stick to control the speed of the character between running and walking.

I'm sure there could be some fine tuning, and maybe they should screw the playtesters and make hop the default jump
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:18 PM
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I found having both speeds on one stick very problematic, especially on the Elum sections, in the old game, you could just hold the run button and instantly be at maximum speed, but now Abe almost feels like a car in the sense that you have to run from a distance to build up that speed.
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
since every other platformer these days uses the left analogue stick to control the speed of the character between running and walking.
Uh yeah maybe in 3D platformers.

I've never played a 2D/2.5D platformer that had weird ass controls like that that handled them well. Sounds kind of gross to me.

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Old 07-27-2014, 02:41 PM
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Really? Limbo and Rayman Origins immediately spring to mind. I can't think of a modern 2D platformer that didn't have run as the only default movement or as the fastest movement possible using only the left analogue stick. I can't think of a recent 2D platformer that had a run button.

Well, actually, Mark of the Ninja had a button for running but that was more like the sneak function in Abe where running drew attention whilst the default movement was silent.

Also, this is what OWI has said about the control scheme.


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Old 07-27-2014, 02:54 PM
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Rayman Origins had a run button I don't know what game you were playing

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Old 07-27-2014, 02:59 PM
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Obviously not Rayman Origins then.
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:59 PM
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Rayman Origins didn't have nearly as many controls as Abe's Oddysee though. But yeah, I prefer a run button too.
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:59 PM
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Whoops

E- Dyna you speedy shit

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Old 07-27-2014, 03:25 PM
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I agree with that control scheme, except that I would put vertical jump on Y (at the top = up) and the hop/leap on A. Makes much more sense and you'll be using hopping a lot more than vertical jumping (at least I do).

Also it's probably a bad idea to alter the controls for the PS4 at this point through a patch. Best thing to do for the PS4 would be to introduce new choosable controler configs. Just changing it out of the blue would be a really weird move.

But yeah, for any other platform that has yet to be released; go with this. It's much better and precise that what we currently have. Also customizable keys for the PC are pretty much a must.
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:00 AM
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We're looking into potentially tweaking the controls a little.
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:38 AM
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I think JAW have really got their heads screwed on by listening to what people have said about the controls instead of ignoring it. Sometimes you gotta accept people want things the other way.
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:48 AM
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This is what separates Oddworld and the other games. I could never imagine GTA, CoD etc fans speaking this directly to the developers and have them listen. I think we're very lucky we have JAW teamed up with Lorne.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaw_alex View Post
We're looking into potentially tweaking the controls a little.
It's almost the only negative thing said about the game in reviews. Quite honestly you'd be stupid not to tweak them if it's still an option.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havoc View Post
It's almost the only negative thing said about the game in reviews. Quite honestly you'd be stupid not to tweak them if it's still an option.
Personally I agree. It's just about how and when. Nothing too drastic, but there's scope for moving a couple of things around and offering up options.
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Old 07-28-2014, 04:01 AM
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Sounds like great news. I hope you guys will be able to do it

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Old 07-28-2014, 09:06 AM
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Run/sprint buttons are a very modern feature anyway. The Arkham series has it, Assassin's Creed has it, GTA has it, even Zelda and Metal Gear have it these days, so I doubt anyone would complain about the change.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:26 AM
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Perhaps then, yeah. If they include it I'd say at least make the semi-classic control scheme and option for players before they start the game instead of the only default.

like show the two control schemes and allow players to pick either when you go to New Game.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:31 AM
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They discussed something similar to that proposal in the Twitch video they did with PSNation and I think they deemed it not worth the effort for one reason or another.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:36 AM
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But now that they are considering changing a few buttons maybe they could? because if they don't i really can't see them completely removing the analogue movement in favour of a run button for the other platforms (especially not PS3 or Vita since they're Cross Buy & Save).

and the majority of complaints I've heard are about the precise jumping. Sure, maybe a run button is the solution to that - and the analogue movement may be be part of the problem - but I've heard a lot of positive comments about how fluid Abe feels this time around.

Although most reviewers seem to think that the controls are awkward this time around a lot of them comment that they're still an improvement over the more rigid original. That the controls being awkward are because they are similar to the original rather than different.

Obviously hardcore fans, like on the OWF, would feel the opposite but this is an opinion I've seen in a lot of the reviews.

Obviously both points of view are legitimate, though, which is why I think two control schemes would be better than permanently changing a lot of it.

EDIT: fleshed out my argument because it was poorly structured.

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Old 07-28-2014, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaw_alex View Post
Personally I agree. It's just about how and when. Nothing too drastic, but there's scope for moving a couple of things around and offering up options.
Thanks for posting, Alex!

All I care about is a standing hop and a run button instead of trying to fit 3 different move speeds on one analog stick!

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Old 07-28-2014, 01:29 PM
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That sounds great. The jump+direction and sneak jumps work, but it would be really good to have a reliable hop and a reliable run.
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Sock View Post
Obviously both points of view are legitimate, though, which is why I think two control schemes would be better than permanently changing a lot of it.
I agree that both should be available, but I think making the current New n Tasty control configuration the default would be a mistake. A lot of the comments on Abe's fluidity in New n Tasty are due to the fine movement Abe can do now. Where Abe once only could travel along on units in a grid, he can now shuffle in between units, making his movement feel more natural.

The new control scheme would retain that fluidity while fixing many of the problems with precision jumping, which is integral to most of the game's puzzles.
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:13 PM
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I think we're just used to the original game's controls. It took me until Zulag 3 to finally get the jist of jumping forward without stepping first. I think all that needs to be changed/improved is a button for forward leap and probably (i know it's unlikely to happen for some reasons) the same technique used when abe is at the end of a ledge and doesn't want to fall off, but standing next to a mine (if you sneak up to it only for precision, otherwise you would just stop walking and it would be too easy.)
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:49 AM
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One thing I will say is that you can do a hop reliably if you push X and then push the direction. This works flawlessly for me and I never miss a jump. If you're pushing the direction before you push X (or at the same time) then you can end up taking that extra step.

I think our downfall here was how we communicated that. We were careful with the wording on the screens and button prompt signs in Zulag 1, but a lot of people skip over those or don't read them fully (which is fair enough). It's kind of a long-winded explantion to fit into a small space.

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They discussed something similar to that proposal in the Twitch video they did with PSNation and I think they deemed it not worth the effort for one reason or another.
It's not that it wasn't worth the effort; some of us wanted to do a Classic control scheme. It's just that you're always working with limited resources (time being the major one), so you have to focus your attention somewhere and not spread your efforts too thinly.

Controls take a lot of time and testing and refinement and tweaking to get right. We decided it would be more valuable to focus on a single control scheme and polish it as best we could, rather than try to make two schemes work and end up pleasing nobody.
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:23 AM
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The controls are in a weird place for me.

On one hand, I find the run/walk on the same analog stick useful for chase scenes and pressing X is the most natural way to jump.

but on the other hand, like what the most of you said, the hopping is quite annoying to get right. In situations where I just need to hop, I find myself walking forward a bit and then jumping, this gets me killed more than anything. But since I don't press X before the directions. I guess it's my own fault. :/
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashpunk View Post
The controls are in a weird place for me.

On one hand, I find the run/walk on the same analog stick useful for chase scenes and pressing X is the most natural way to jump.

but on the other hand, like what the most of you said, the hopping is quite annoying to get right. In situations where I just need to hop, I find myself walking forward a bit and then jumping, this gets me killed more than anything. But since I don't press X before the directions. I guess it's my own fault. :/
It's not a question of fault.

It's about us trying to find a way to make X feel more organic given the relatively rigidity of the jumping mechanics. X to hop is pretty flexible (I press X and l/r at the same time, as Matt says, he presses X first and then l/r) but we're concious that a toggle to allow another button (say, Triangle) to hop might be more suitable.

Like Matt said, resources are incredibly tight for things like this. But we're listening.
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:25 AM
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Sorry yeah my post wasn't intended to come across as "you're doing it wrong". More like, this is how we intended it to work, but I don't think we fully succeeded in making that clear and intuitive.
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:42 AM
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C'mon, Crowbar. Just tell them to do it right and stop complaining!
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